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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.02.13 02:06:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 12/02/2011 09:19:52
Quote:
While I understand the desire for some people to be given the "OK" to invest by someone else. I still hold firm the believe that Audits promote and give credibility to anyone with a "clean record". Some of the most scrupulous financial villains throughout history had a "Clean Record", advertising this allowed them to pilfer money from people for decades..
This post makes me weep.
First of all because you come exactly from a corrupted institution whose only reply to dozens requests for a minimum of transparency has always been: "we are a private institution (so GTFO)".
Second, because this generalization is like: "why have a car insurance when so many fraud it". There are always outliers to anything and audits are like everything else: they attempt to cover a lot of cases, to be a scammer entry barrier. They act as deterrent, exactly like the mere act of the police being somewhere makes low level criminals stay calm till they go away. High level criminals WILL keep doing their "business" and will eventually also corrupt some of the police, still we keep the police. There's nothing to do about this and we have to deal with it. Because they are not gods but they filter out a number of common cases.
Third, because by this point it has been said dozens of times that audits physically grant ONLY that a guy has required skills and a certain NAV. Investors that get hyped in something more are on their own and will lose money. I am not even sorry for them, they have been warned a lot of times.
Fourth, I'd like to see your records about how many audited investments (by me) have turned up as scam (in the same investment of the audit ofc) vs how many un-audited investments turned up as scams. I have the former and the number, however hard you try, is proportionally lower than the latter however you flip it.
First off, I would trust SencneS a million times before I would trust you. So watch out for such low blows.
Second, the police can put you in jail, so comparing an auditor to a police officer is nonsense.
Third, MD has been pushing the use of audits as some form of security. You even said it yourself ôhow many audited investments (by me) have turned up as scamö
No audit will prevent a rotten CEO to walk away with the ISK, if anything it will help them raise more money.
Ricdic and Bad Bobby are perfect examples where they use the ôsecurities in placeö to raise money beyond their trust.
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.02.13 03:11:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur
VV is probably the most trusted member of the MD community.
Says who? You; a well known scammer!
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.02.13 16:17:00 -
[3]
@ Liberty
I donÆt think IÆm making a logical error. My main point is that audits can be used to raise money beyond trust. In the case of Bad Bobby, he was indirectly audited by the fact that directors locked the assets. Each director could verify the existence of the BPOs, which is what audits do. And, if IÆm not mistaking, Hexxx and others had RicdicÆs API information.
And what exactly do audits cure? Audits are a pill to make investors feel better, but do not cure scam risks. Even you agree that a savvy scammer can use audits for their benefit.
@ VV
You and I disagree on a basic point. You view audits as a deterrent while I view audits as a scammerÆs tool. Do you really believe that you could have stopped Bab Bobby from taking the BPOs if you have audited him?
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.02.13 17:30:00 -
[4]
I audit BSAC on an ongoing basis and had audited other ventures. I understand the limitations of audits, and what they can do and cannot do. A BSAC audit will simply confirm my spreadsheet. People invest in BSAC because they trust I wonÆt run away with their ISK. IÆm sure some investors will ôfeel betterö by a third party audit but by no means an audit should be used to diminish the major business risk in BSAC which is mineral price volatility.
I understand how audits can be used in the scammerÆs advantage. It is just a matter of time before a scammer exploits the ôaudit mentalityö. IÆve seen it before in the MD, when everyone was pushing for ôsecure venturesö via locked assets by a BOD. In the case of Bad Bobby, everyone went for it because his venture was ôsecuredö, and people overlooked the investment risks. By the way, locked down BPOs have more teeth than audits.
While I understand that audits can deter the dummy scammer, they can also help a savvy scammer. IÆll continue to warn investors against using audits as a trust-building tool.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.02.15 03:30:00 -
[5]
VV,
You should get your facts straight.
An audit cannot tell how many accounts someone has. Therefore, it cannot tell if someone has an account with a shady history. Auditors are at the mercy of the person providing the API key. This FACT should be enough for anyone to realize how useless audits are in determining scam risk.
For instance, letÆs assume a scammer has two accounts, one clean and one dirty. It is trivial to transfer assets between accounts that would not show up in an audit. In addition, an audit cannot tell the origin of the source of assets, because audits can only go back one month.
Keep propping audits and continue to ignore these FACTS and eventually someone will use you as a stepping stone in his next scam. Audits have their place in eve, but please stop pretending that audits can possibly stop a Ponzi scheme. It would be trivial for past scammers to run a Ponzi scheme and fool your audit.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.02.15 14:41:00 -
[6]
It sounds to me like you all agree with me that a savvy scammer can fool an audit.
On a separate topic, can someone please provide me with links where an audit has discovered an IPO/Bond to be a scam? Thanks in advanced.
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